2024-08-17 Saturday Peaceful Freedom Rally
11:00am - 12 noon Markham and Lawrence
Nurse Sarah A. Choujounian’s ongoing disciplinary hearing 2024-08-16
Cross examination continued where it left off last week. College of Nurses of Ontario (CNO) lawyer Meagan Shortreed, started on the content of Ms. Choujounian’s posts. I would say this was a hard day for Ms. Choujounian who seemed to frequently lose her train of thought. While Ms. Choujounian got the big picture right, I thought the College effectively demonstrated that she got many details wrong and that her tone in many cases was unprofessional.
The College challenged Ms. Choujounian on her post about PTFE in masks causing cancer and incorrectly citing cancer.org. I think it essentially amounts to https://health-desk.org/articles/why-is-there-misinformation-relating-wearing-a-mask-with-teflon-ptfe-to-getting-cancer. This is one case where the fact checkers were at least partly correct and Ms. Choujounian had to admit the information did not come from cancer.org and she could not provide a reference. The College also attempted to attack Ms Choujounian for not taking the post down after the College raised the issue in the investigation, but it was unclear if the post was still up at that point. The bigger picture of course is that the best evidence, such as the Cochrane Review shows no statistical effect for cloth masks against SarsCOV-2. I’ve lost track of all the evidence the defense is trying to put into the record so this may be a situation where the defense is hamstrung by their experts being disqualified but this does appear to be an outright error by Ms. Choujounian and does discredit the quality of her research.
When questioned about her statement that mask could decrease in oxygen intake and have detrimental effects on a child’s brain, Ms Choujounian could not cite evidence although she maintained it did exist.
There was debate about whether Public Health properly informed the public about how to wear masks. Ms Shortreed pointed to an Ontario Ministry of Labour website and cited the daily Public Health press conferences. I thought Ms. Choujounian largely countered this by pointing out that Public Health had changed their messaging from no masks, to masks, to double masking.
There was also what seemed to me to be damaging questioning about a post that stated something to the effect of “Lets get together and bring these psychopaths to justice” Ms. Choujounian agreed that was not the best wording and that she had become more careful as she got more experience, although this type of extreme wording came up later in further posts. Ms Shortreed made convincing arguments that the psychopaths would have to include medical colleagues like medical officers of health. Ms. Choujounian couldn’t identify who the psychopaths were and said she thought they were probably above public health, in government or even international organizations. There has been a court case in Alberta that would support Ms. Choujounian’s position by showing that politicians were involved in medical decisions there but Ms. Choujounian didn’t cite it or any other evidence so she came across as a conspiracy theorist and unprofessional to her colleagues.
I thought the cross on the post about deaths from COVID-19 vs Heart Disease failed to score any major points.
I thought the College caught Ms. Choujounian out over her skis in her post about the government controlling PCR Test Cycle thresholds to manufacture the pandemic and using hashtags like #criminal but Ms. Choujounian couldn’t supply any references and again came across as a conspiracy theorist and unprofessional to her colleagues. I think that in the bigger picture PCR tests probably were run at excessive cycles and abused as diagnostic tools but the panel may well find against Ms. Choujounian because she didn’t express herself precisely enough.
There was interesting debate over Ms. Choujounian’s post on Peel Region Medical Officer of Health Directives - “here we go again, Do not comply, we need to toughen up and disobey”. Ms Choujounian stated she did not consider Directives as binding laws, considered they violated the Charter, was trying to get people to disobey, because they were more harmful than helpful. Ethics trump directives and her professional obligation to respect the law. Ms Choujounian also stated she lived in Peel Region and had received videos showing local hospitals were largely empty. I’m sympathetic but I doubt the panel is. I hope Ms Choujounian’s lawyer, Mr. Boissonneau-Lehner makes some good arguments on closing to cover this.
I thought the College caught Ms. Choujounian out on her repost of a video by Dr. Roger Hodkinson because she summarized the repost as the pandemic is a hoax which she agreed was a misleading summary of the video which was more along the lines that the public health response to COVID-19 was a hoax. Ms Choujounian tried to argue that the video itself mitigated the misleading title of her repost, but she did not update the title when Facebook removed the underlying video…
The College got Ms. Choujounian to admit that her Dec 6 repost of a video claiming the AstraZeneca vaccine was developed with the MRC5 fetal cell tissue incorrectly stated that there were fragments of fetal tissue in the vaccine. Ms. Choujounian argues that vaccine may contain trace amounts of fetal cells and so perhaps she could have argued that “fragment” was a synonym for “trace”. But it was clear throughout today that English was Ms Choujounian’s 3rd language and although she is fluent, it’s not to a level that would be desirable in cross examination. Plus cross can be stressful and difficult even for native speakers.
The College attacked the expertise of the speakers in the video “The question on everyone's mind, Ask the experts” which I expect the panel will hold against Ms. Choujounian’s claim that she relied on greater experts than herself… But so many experts were afraid to speak up that in many cases it was only people more peripheral to infectious disease that spoke up, creating a credibility catch-22 for the anti-narrative viewpoint.
I only hope the panel give Ms Choujounian as much latitude for error as Public Health has gotten.
The CNO cut the feed at approximately 16:20 so I’m unable to report the overall status of the case. I expect cross to continue. According to Find a Nurse the next hearing is Monday the 19th. Contact HearingsAdministrationGroup@cnomail.org for the YouTube link.
Legal Disclaimers: I remain not a lawyer so please absolutely don’t rely on this as legal advice. I was tired and had trouble concentrating on the arguments. Also I took notes using an editor that is quite powerful and sensitive to getting the keystrokes exactly correct and I may have inadvertently reordered some of the raw notes. Unfortunately the CNO does not permit recording the hearing so these comments are largely from notes/memory. Presumably there will be an official transcript available at cost if you require legally reliable information.
Rally at Markham and Lawrence this Saturday from 11:00am - 12 noon
Please bring a freedom related sign, flag, flyers etc. if you have them.
I will be at or near Markham and Lawrence, ending up directly outside Healthy Planet in Cedarbrae Mall towards noon.
Raw Notes (may be out of order)
2024-08-16 day 25
9:38
Code principle 3.Sarah did the research on the post and thought it was relevant
Sarah no studies about extended mask wearing, but did research ingredients in mask and found some were carcinogenic PTFE on cancer.org
but Shortreed there is no such entry
Chris Shafer - The Coronavirus Conspiracy, Sarah knows him as an expert on masks
Sarah does recognize oncology but feels there is cancer expertise outside of oncology, such as among PPE specialists relative to masks
Sarah concerns about prolonged mask use, masks falling apart, but not explicitly in post.
Shortreed #mask, #safety, #unsafe, #toxic
Shortreed #fluoride, #cantbreath, #oxygen, #suffocation, #antimask - Sarah: for purposes of pandemic, #nomask
Shortreed Instagram partly false information - Sarah after the fact, doesn't go back and review post
Sarah didn't go back and take down posts after College disclosed posts
4 scope agreed, sharing expertise from people with more expertise
Code principle 3.7 accurate sources of information, 100% accurate
agreed to post truthful information
agreed careful not to post to content that was not truthful
Partial Agreed statement of facts
16. Speach at Yonge and Dundas
20.
Decrease in oxygen intake due to mask detrimental effects on childs brian
- study on hypoxia, experience, common sense, critical thinking
- Shortreed suggests no randomized control trial to demonstrate detrimental effects of wearing masks
- Shortreed suggests RCTs suggests no oxygen deprivation
- Sarah suggests there is scientific evidence
- Sarah sent information about Public Health, but did not go to the source
Objection rule 42.1 advance notice of evidence, B-L believes it applies to cross?
- objection denied
Government of Ontario Ministry of Labour
- masks for COVID-19, selecting masks, using masks properly
- Sarah doesn't think the public went to this page, were getting improper information from other sources
Objection as to date of page, will share version from wayback machine
- Using masks properly
- Daily Press Conferences
- Sarah found the advice confusing because it changed over time no mask, one mask, two masks (Shortreed agrees)
- Government of Ontario, agreed did provide some appropriate advice.
- Sarah masks were not a good recommendation in the first place - cloth masks do not protect against viruses
- Sarah 10 minutes speach, couldn't get to minute details
21.
Lets get together and bring these psychopaths (Government Officials, Public Health etc) to justice
Sarah agrees that was not the best wording
discussion over respect to colleagues, Shortreed suggest Government Official include medical doctors
Sarah - whoever made those decisions on masks must have been psychopaths, corrupt, coerced, but doesn't know who made the decision
Sarah - decision may have come from higher than public health
Sarah - importance of multiple views on healths
Covid vs Heart Disease
- Statitics Canada Website 2020, Heart:Covid deaths 4:1
Objection rule 42.1 for the record - denied
- Shorteed: Cardiovascular chronic cause of death, COVID-19 new disease
- Statscan said COVID-19 was 16000 deaths, although Sarah thinks the count may be exagerated
we didn't take any action to reduce heart disease, McDonald's open, Liquor stores open - they contribute
- Covid death rate did not justify the lockdowns
- Comparison in deaths
- contageous/non contageous vs public health - not sure what Shortreed driving at
22.
did not point out COVID-19 was excess deaths
Sarah Comparing Public Health response to different types of death and found COVID-19 response excessive
23 Agreed Statement of Fact
Jason Christophe - self sabotage coach, knew of him on Nov 3, Sarah didn't post because Christophe was an expert, but because he explained it well.Sarah now knows that he believes the government is doing extinction initiatives
American Frontline Doctors - Shorteed "anti vax", "52 physcians spreading misinformation", "supporting ivermectin", Dr Simone Gold stormed Capitol,Carry Mullis video on PCR Test, 1993 HIV, just a tool
Shortreed: Bridle testified PCR testing is gold standard for detecting the presence of SARS COV2 - Sarah agrees
Shortreed: post said government controlled cycle thresholds
Sarah: corruption, concerned about false positives, but no evidence, #government, #criminal, agrees
Shortreed: not respectful to call testers criminals, hashtags are from Sarah
Shortreed: NWO (New World Order) conspiracy theory,
Sarah: NWO is World Economic Forum, UN, Agenda 21 is from UN
Sarah: Agenda 2030 on World Economic Forum, UN, believes it could be misleading and reduce our freedoms
Shortreed: Instagram partly false information, Sarah doesn't agree with Instagram, Sarah said she did double check and does think she was correct
Sarah: posts are now down
12:57
Dr Barham Floriani - Chiropractor chapter in her book linked vaccines to cancer, mad cow disease etc
- had surrendered her licence
Sarah: under investigation not necessarily significant because so many professionals were under investigation
Sarah did the research on the post and thought it was relevant
Sarah no studies about extended mask wearing, but did research ingredients in mask and found some were carcinogenic PTFE on cancer.org
but Shortreed there is no such entry
Chris Shafer - The Coronavirus Conspiracy, Sarah knows him as an expert on masks
Sarah does recognize oncology but feels there is cancer expertise outside of oncology, such as among PPE specialists relative to masks
Sarah concerns about prolonged mask use, masks falling apart, but not explicitly in post.
Shortreed #mask, #safety, #unsafe, #toxic
Shortreed #fluoride, #cantbreath, #oxygen, #suffocation, #antimask - Sarah: for purposes of pandemic, #nomask
Shortreed Instagram partly false information - Sarah after the fact, doesn't go back and review post
Sarah didn't go back and take down posts after College disclosed posts
Shortreed obligation to respect the law, did get summonses and tickets for breaching public health regulations - in the spirit of Nelson Mandela
25
Post on Peel Region Directives - here we go again, Do not comply, we need to toughen up and disobey
Peel Region MO of Health has authority to issue mask mandates, Sarah spoke with lawyers, said she did not consider Directives as binding laws,
Considered they violated the Charter, was trying to get people to disobey, because they were more harmful than helpful. Ethics trump directives.
Ethics required to oppose mandates. Way too much emphasis on title. Public Health not on front lines like Sarah. Hospitals not overrun, Many nurses told Sarah that hospitals were empty.
Shortreed: measures aimed at reducing the spread laudable - but risk vs benefit
Sarah: a lot less people in many hospitals
Sarah lives in Peel Region and knew people who went into hospitals and videotaped empty ERs
Dr Roger Hodkinson general pathologist, Not Chairman of the examination committee of Pathology of RCPS
Sarah knew that Royal College of Physcians and Surgeons distanced themselves from Dr Hodkinson
Alberta Medical Association also opposed the video, Snopes found Hodkinson fell outside the consensus
knows Dr Hodkinson is being prosecuted by his college
Sarah always standing in solidarity with all nurses, no disrespect for anyone in medical field, thinks the corruption higher up
The pandemic was a hoax
Objection that not reasonable to know actions that occurred on the same date.
Nov 23rd - Meant the response to pandemic was a hoax, Facebook removed the video, but left Sarah's headline, Sarah agrees her summary might be misleading, Facebook labelled as false information via fact checker. Whole Nurses Against Lockdowns was deleted
Censorship was not necessarily an indicator of invalidity.
Dec 6 MRC5 - AstraZeneca
Sarah did not know women in video when Sarah shared
Sarah knew Facebook had concerns, but thought it was important to share it because of insert shown in video which she couldn't find elsewhere
Sarah could not find AstraZeneca insert on Health Canada because vaccine was not licenced for use in Canada.
Sarah important to check any vaccine
Actually HEC293 cell line used, trace amounts may remain, non-essential error according to Sarah
Sarah agrees no scientific basis to say fetal fragments in vaccine,
28 Nurses Against Lockdown
The question on everyone's mind, Ask the experts
Facebook took the video down, and labelled it false information, but tuned out because censorship was widespread
didn't look up all participants, checked some
didn't check types of doctors - believed they have relevant information at least more than the general public, but Sarah labelled as expert
Andrew Kaufman - psychiatrist - doesn't even believe in germ theory
Kate Shemerani? Nurse in UK, holocaust may be similar to Nuremberg
Dr Kelly Brogan - knowledge of psychological effect of lockdowns
Not a "deadly" pandemic
Theresa Tam, media, government, somebody "at the top" whom Sarah can't name, made it seem the virus was so deadly, they would be dropping in the streets?
Sarah why were we locked down if the pandemic was not deadly
Anthony Fauci article What is a Pandemic?
- May not have read the article before posting the video, but has read the article
- shared characteristics of pandemics: widespread, novelty, infectious, contageous, severity...
- conclusion - unified definition of epidemic, pandemic
- lockdowns driven by fear of death
- Sarah agrees COVID-19 met the criteria in the Fauci article
Watched some videos did not look up peer reviewed articles, not experts, not Public Health Ontario website,
Sarah agreed that it was not a real pandemic
Sarah agreed that she said vaccines were not safe or effective
Sarah agreed there were safety trials, but not completed, fast tracked approval
Objection to willy nilly introduction of new documents
~16:20 streaming stopped